|
|
Post by Jack on Jul 18, 2015 13:39:19 GMT -5
OK, I know this is going to be about as popular as a drunk ex-girlfriend at a wedding, but I keep reading here about .410 being a useful round.
For instance, it's claimed slugs are just fine for deer.
Looking online, most .410 slugs have a ME of just over 700 ft-lb, about the same as... oh yes, the .22 Hornet. The slugs have got a BC like a nurf ball, so at 100 yards, that KE is down to about 200 ft-lb, about the same as a .38 Special at the same range - and who in their right mind would take a .38 Spl after deer at 100 yards?
Moreover, a bullet that light, wide and slow equates - absent lotsa luck - to pretty poor penetration.
So, a marginal-at-the-muzzle round sporting a rainbow trajectory and losing velocity like a pole dancer shedding burning clothes...
To be fair, a friend of mine swears that as a little boy he watched an elderly neighbour take down a black bear in her garden with a .410 slug, but he also says she stuck the barrel in its ear before firing. And, yes, it's true that deer have been taken with even wimpier cartridges, say .22 rimfire, but I've palways suspected that for every one taken with the .22, half a dozen have staggered off to die a slow death, so the 'there are worse rounds' logic really doesn't stand up for much.
For a really good shooter with an unobstructed side-on shot at under 50 yards and a pocket full of rabbits' feet, maybe. But how often does that happen in the real world?
As for shot, I'm not even going to talk about the realities of duck or pheasant hunting with 1/2 oz loads for anybody but exceptional shots. For most of us, squirrels at 15 yards kindasorta ends its wingshooting potential.
Yes, the Model 24 is a classic. I like the ones I have (20 ga, all). But what's the fascination with the .410? Seriously.
Not trying to start a battle, but this place has so many apparent .410 fans and I thought somebody could explain.
|
|
wm
Rank Stranger
Posts: 7 
|
Post by wm on Jul 18, 2015 16:24:50 GMT -5
I worked for a guy who was a grand master Skeet champion, triple AAA rated all f our gauges...he broke 200or more in a row with a .410...I guess he knew how to shoot. In addition, rabbits, squirrels, doves and assorted other birdes fall regularly to a .410..you just have to be a better shot, use the proper load...and yes, not try hitting them on the fly at 50 yds!!!
|
|
blaze
Frequent poster
Posts: 108
|
Post by blaze on Jul 18, 2015 20:31:42 GMT -5
I've always considered my several Stevens 22-410s, over the years, to be excellent "back door guns". That is a gun available at all times (usually near the back door for use by the man or woman of the house) to rid our country place of unwanted rabbits and woodchucks in the garden, rats around the out buildings, corn crib, and dump. Squirrels in the old attics, some snakes, skunks opossums and raccoons in the trash or hen house and other undesired critters. In days past owls and hawks were on the list until they became protected. Back then .22's and .410 ammunition was the cheapest available and the most useful for these purposes. These in general were very useful guns and good trainers for young boys of the time. These combo guns can still serve this purpose in some areas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jack on Jul 19, 2015 0:56:40 GMT -5
No disrespect, wm, but this confims that a Grand Master can use a .410. Sorta like saying that Chuck Norris can use lightweight gloves. 99.999% of people can't do that.
OK, I can see price difference in a tight economy; I hadn't been aware of big differnce between that and 20 ga.
So, expense aside, why not the highly more effective 20 ga?
Truly not trying To troll or tease. This has had me curious for a long time. I will admit that it makes the 9mm RF shotshell look bad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Polecat on Jul 19, 2015 3:12:56 GMT -5
I say this as a Brand New .410 Owner... I asked myself the same questions for a long time. All of my Savage 24s are 20 gauges. Then I bought a Chiappa Double Badger 22/410 to evaluate whether it would be a good gun for my mother to shoot varmints out of her garden. I'd decided to keep it and get another one for her...... The .410 is growing on me. Versatile? No. Fun? For sure! Within the small niche that it fills, anyway (non-flying small game and varmints). But I still think the .410 is a poor choice for a general purpose shotgun. And a poor choice for a shotgun for a kid, too. I made myself a "Lee Loader" -alike hand loading set with a $7 crimp starter die for a Mec press, some scrap PVC, and a couple of bolts. Slower than a press for sure, but the .410 is really cheap to load for. I use plated #6 shot over some H110 in 3" Winchester hulls. I'd guess it ends up being about $0.04 per shell to reload. Throws denser patterns with the hard plated shot. My guess is that the 3" shells deform the soft lead shot. Here's the article I got the idea from: beforeitsnews.com/self-sufficiency/2013/10/homemade-410-reloading-kit-2463934.htmlAnyway, I like it because the gun is tiny and cute, it's cheap to reload, and challenging to shoot. |
|
|
|
Post by Gramps1951 on Jul 19, 2015 6:00:21 GMT -5
As a young shooter my grandfather got me a Model 24 .22/.410 as my regular shooter. It was WAY more fun to shoot than the 10ga W.W. Greener side by side I shot bottles with on a sunny, warm duck hunting day as a 6 year old!! I shot more game and varmints with that Savage than I could even count. The .410 taught me to be accurate and fast. When hunting partridge the .22 came in handy when one of these dummies refused to fly and give itself a fighting chance. I regularly shot trap with a Winchester Model 42 .410 pump that garnered more interest than ANY imported big dollar Italian O/U and helped me hone my response time immensely. Any shooter with a lick of common sense knows the limitation of the gun he/she is using and to attempt to exceed that limitation is cruel to the game and totally irresponsible. For me, the Savage 24 .22/.410 was an excellent choice when used for the logical purpose it was intended for. I still own it and the OLD W.W. Greener 10ga but don't use either any longer. I just take them out and clean them regularly and relish the great memories that both of them provide!!
|
|
|
|
Post by gman on Jul 19, 2015 10:52:47 GMT -5
I've always considered my several Stevens 22-410s, over the years, to be excellent "back door guns". That is a gun available at all times (usually near the back door for use by the man or woman of the house) to rid our country place of unwanted rabbits and woodchucks in the garden, rats around the out buildings, corn crib, and dump. Squirrels in the old attics, some snakes, skunks opossums and raccoons in the trash or hen house and other undesired critters. In days past owls and hawks were on the list until they became protected. Back then .22's and .410 ammunition was the cheapest available and the most useful for these purposes. These in general were very useful guns and good trainers for young boys of the time. These combo guns can still serve this purpose in some areas. I use my 22/410 for this exact purpose it makes a great "back door gun". |
|
|
|
Post by Jack on Jul 19, 2015 12:47:18 GMT -5
More fun for a six-year-old than a 10 ga... Well, I guess that goes without saying. I think a .22 Mag would be more fun than a .45/70, too.
Good back-door gun... I can't argue that a light combo gun is a great back door or truck gun. My 24C is almost always somewhere nearby when I'm hunting or camping. So, I completely agree with the concept, but why would a Model 24 in .410/.22LR be better (or even as good as) than a Model 24 in, say, 20 ga/.22LR? (Not considering expense.) BTW, Leaf, thanks for that reloading tip. Amazing what some old-fashioned inginuity can produce!
As for a teaching shotgun for kids, I remember my early shotgun days (and will be upfront in saying that I never was an expert and am considerably less than that now). I remember getting really frustrated try to hit anything with my grandfather's .410. Things improved with his old SxS 20 ga. Being able to hit something was to me at that unskilled level important and the 20 ga made it easier, even with his equally old cardboard-tube, roll-crimp ammo.
Thanks for the feedback.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigkelly on Jul 19, 2015 19:29:04 GMT -5
Jack
I feel the same way--I've never been a fan of 410--I have a set of 410 O/U barrels for my 24V but don't really use them very often-- it just doesn't add up for me
I have great success with the chamber mates from Cabellas (these really work well--I have a set of 12 to 20 ga) and I think having a 24 in 20 ga and using a set of 410 chamber mates makes the most sense to me--you can shoot both from the same gun if you want
|
|
|
|
Post by jrguerra on Jul 20, 2015 12:29:10 GMT -5
The big strike against the .410 is the cost of FACTORY ammunition, totally out of line in my opinion. The pluses - well, back when manufacturers took the time to make different frame sizes, the little .410s were (and are) really comfortable to carry in the field. Moreso than the 20 or 12s. Compare the 12 gauge Savage 24 and older .410s and you see what I mean. This pair of .410s are very easy to carry.  For a barnyard varmint gun, the smaller shot load causes less damage due to the smaller shot load. When you have valuable equipment and property you would prefer staying undamaged - that counts. Also much easier on the shoulder - single shot stock design sometimes has a lot of drop, causing more felt recoil. Smaller ammunition - easier to carry. This 'dollar store' reading glass case does a good job just keeping it handy.  |
|
|
|
Post by jeffb1911 on Jul 20, 2015 14:22:23 GMT -5
Jack, this is kind of like the question i was asked many years ago by a child when i sold tools. "Why so many hammers?" the kid asked. If you think about it, basically they are the same question. You do not need to hit everything with the two pound sledgehammer! Sometimes a little tap with a 4oz hammer is all that is needed. There is a famous firearms trainer that has a line "when your only tool is a hammer all your problems look like nails".
The Savage 24 series has been a "woodsrunning" type gun, and in that niche it excels. Light weight, reasonably accurate, and dead nuts reliable! Will a goose gun do better at being a shotgun? Yes. Will a heavy barrel target rimfire rifle shoot tighter groups? Yes. Do we want to carry those through the woods while we are out running around? NO! Along the same lines why are pistol caliber carbines so popular? Because you can hit the target with just enough energy. Would a 30-06 do better? It will hit harder, not necessarily better. I've got dad's 24's in both lr over 410 and lr over 20. The 410 has been my go to gun for snakes and other vermin in the yard. Little 2 1/2" load is just the ticket for most things that i use it for. If i were to use something bigger i would put too many holes in things i do not want to.
The other thing is that a 410 can be made thinner and thus lighter, and many years ago they were. Does anyone remember when the 24F was introduced? The penny pinchers made the decision to quit making the regular size receiver, and slap a 20ga barrel on a 12ga frame. That, along with the "safety" killed the design. Our trim little woodsrunning gun gained over a pound of weight, and not enough people purchased them anymore. So in making it "better" they actually killed the commercial sales.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 15:55:55 GMT -5
Great answer jeffb1911. For a woods runner though, I don't feel like the added weight from the 20guage rimfires could ever possibly overshadow the increase in range and versatility........with the exception of the laughably heavy F's. I personally feel like a 410's place is for non hunting sport shooting. I am however 100%in support of everyone having their 24 exactly how they want their 24, So I don't feel any way in particular about another person using a 410 for game or pests or varmints or whatever.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jack on Jul 22, 2015 8:57:21 GMT -5
Some good points there, gents. My thanks for your time spent in my education.
|
|
|
|
Post by vancmike on Jul 25, 2015 15:20:05 GMT -5
I've mentioned many times on this site my own experience, but here goes again: when I bought my original Mdl 24 I was in my teens and living in Illinois. It was a great rifle for the place and the time: 22 shorts were lots cheaper than longs and long rifle, 2 1/2" .410 shells were cheaper than 3", and any .410 was cheaper than 20, 16 or 12 gauge. I shot lots of rabbits, squirrels and rats with .22 shorts, as well as running rabbits, squirrels and quail with the shorter .410.
When it came time to hunt pheasant and duck, I had to step up to 3" shells (#5 lead shot was my favorite....I still have some of those old paper shells) and it wasn't until years later that I was told that .410 was inadequate for both pheasant and duck. Huh. Good thing I didn't know it at the time (and, in all honesty, my wing-shooting skills have deteriorated enough now that I would never try using .410 again....I dunno, either I'm too old or the birds are bigger, faster or.....plus, I don't think anyone makes steel shot for .410 anyway, do they?).
In any case, just before my senior year of high school, we moved to North Idaho, then I went to college the following year in south-western Idaho. Now between our north Idaho home and the plains of south Idaho, there are 114 named mountain ranges and (literally) hundreds, maybe thousands of mountain peaks. That ain't pheasant and bunny land (actually, some of the jack-rabbits seem big as a horse!), so I began my accumulation of deer and elk rifles; Hun, pheasant, quail and duck guns; varmint rifles and so on.
So my little .22/.410 got put away. Even now, where I live in western Washington, it has limited use. But it was my first firearm and I still love it today.
So it depends upon the time and the place. Obviously, on this site, there are those who believe that a rifle/shotgun combination, even in .410, it's still the right time and right place.
|
|
blaze
Frequent poster
Posts: 108
|
Post by blaze on Jul 25, 2015 15:53:49 GMT -5
vancmike: I agree with you. The old Stevens 22-410s (Sav. 24)are small game/pest guns. They are very good at that, but for more formal hunting I would prefer a dedicated rifle or shotgun (read more appropriate). Also, fyi both Winchester and Federal loan the .410 with steel shot (3"). I buy mine thru BassPro on line as the local stores don't carry .410 steel shot loads..
|
|
