Post by seavoyage on Jan 1, 2014 21:18:01 GMT -5
24V .222 Rem/20 ga. with MCA .22LR in .222 Rem Chamber Adapter www.mcace.com/adapters.htm
Seeking advice:
1. Are there any issues using Federal 2-3/4 Power-Shok Rifle Slugs in the 20ga Barrel (Factory Full Choke)? www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=139
2. .222 Rem factory barrel spec is: 1-in-14" twist rate. Most ammo comes in 50gr. Any factory loads with a lighter weight that retain mass (does not disintegrate) result in a flatter trajectory?
Lead free?
I'm required to use lead free in many of the areas I hunt and was considering reaming the chamber to convert to .223; I was surprised that the .223 uses the same 1-in-14 twist rate, which may not stabilize for most modern factory loads (55gr),
it's probably OK with the 45gr Remington Premier Disintegrator Varmint Load but I need a bullet that retains mass such as Barnes TSX or Gilding metal for CXP2; and Remington doesn't offer the Copper Solid (Gilding metal) in .222.
Barnes VOR-TX .223 is 55gr, but no factory loads in .222;
Federal .223: 40gr and 43gr (Speer TNT Green) V-Shok (same as .222) and 50gr JHP American Eagle.
Hornady .222 35gr NTX and 50gr VMAX are temporarily suspended; .223 50gr GMX (Gilding) is available
Winchester: no luck in .222 Power Core 95/5 (Gilding), .223 64gr available.
3. Need a proper sling mount: Will the .750-.800 diameter barrel mount fit the 20ga tube without issue? www.midwayusa.com/product/936974/uncle-mikes-quick-detachable-magnum-band-sling-swivel-set-barrel-with-750-800-diameter-1-black
4. Any required modifications to install a Williams 5D-22/410 Economy Receiver Sight ? Is the front ramp sight the correct height? Can I modify for a Fire-sight conversion or Tru-glow conversion for low-light conditions (pre-dawn/post dusk)?
Thanks for the feedback, and the wealth of experience and knowledge on this forum.
We might have better luck finding a .30-30/20ga but then I won't have the 22LR...
Seeking advice:
1. Are there any issues using Federal 2-3/4 Power-Shok Rifle Slugs in the 20ga Barrel (Factory Full Choke)? www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=139
2. .222 Rem factory barrel spec is: 1-in-14" twist rate. Most ammo comes in 50gr. Any factory loads with a lighter weight that retain mass (does not disintegrate) result in a flatter trajectory?
Lead free?
I'm required to use lead free in many of the areas I hunt and was considering reaming the chamber to convert to .223; I was surprised that the .223 uses the same 1-in-14 twist rate, which may not stabilize for most modern factory loads (55gr),
it's probably OK with the 45gr Remington Premier Disintegrator Varmint Load but I need a bullet that retains mass such as Barnes TSX or Gilding metal for CXP2; and Remington doesn't offer the Copper Solid (Gilding metal) in .222.
Barnes VOR-TX .223 is 55gr, but no factory loads in .222;
Federal .223: 40gr and 43gr (Speer TNT Green) V-Shok (same as .222) and 50gr JHP American Eagle.
Hornady .222 35gr NTX and 50gr VMAX are temporarily suspended; .223 50gr GMX (Gilding) is available
Winchester: no luck in .222 Power Core 95/5 (Gilding), .223 64gr available.
3. Need a proper sling mount: Will the .750-.800 diameter barrel mount fit the 20ga tube without issue? www.midwayusa.com/product/936974/uncle-mikes-quick-detachable-magnum-band-sling-swivel-set-barrel-with-750-800-diameter-1-black
4. Any required modifications to install a Williams 5D-22/410 Economy Receiver Sight ? Is the front ramp sight the correct height? Can I modify for a Fire-sight conversion or Tru-glow conversion for low-light conditions (pre-dawn/post dusk)?
Thanks for the feedback, and the wealth of experience and knowledge on this forum.
We might have better luck finding a .30-30/20ga but then I won't have the 22LR...
Feb 1, 2013 13:54:26 GMT -8 oldfotoman said:
Very interesting info. I posted a question on another thread here because I recently got a 223 over 20 gauge.
cas and odell23 seem to be on track, but slightly off according to the info I got from Cartridges of the World and from several web sources. And your measurements are not what Savage told me.
The 222 originally had a twist rate of 1:14, then went to 1:12 when trying to meet newer mil specs. The 223 (or 5.56) was actually a new cartridge developed for a twist rate of 1:9 for the initial cartridge M193 and 223, 55grain; then went to a 1:7 twist for the 62grain M855. The 222 had been modified to it's limits already, so the 223 was developed as a new cartridge to replace it. It was not a modification of the 222. Since the original twist rate for the 223 is 1:9, they were never designed or intended for the slower 1:12.
Savage informed me that all of their 223 barrels are either 1:9 or 1:7. Their 222 barrels were a twist rate of 1:14 or 1:12. However, they also said that they do not have complete records for the older models as Savage changed ownership in 1995. The Savage 24 was not discontinued until 2007, so many were made under this new ownership and many, many more under the older ownerships and managements. So it is quite possible that Savage does not actually know just what the twist rates are in the different years of production.
This begs a couple more questions. As I've read an almost equal number of people who say theirs are tack drivers to those who say theirs are unstable or not accurate at any reasonable distance: I have to wonder --- Did Savage maybe use up their excess 222 barrels by just chambering them for the 223? This different twist rate could certainly explain the inconsistencies. Most everything I've seen from someone who has re-chambered their 222 to a 223 says they are more accurate with slower, lighter bullets.
If there are some out there with the slower twist and some with the faster twist that the 223 was designed for. It could certainly make a major difference in the accuracy. The lighter, slower bullets that have similar ballistics to the 222 would stabilize in the slow rate just like the 222s did; while the heavier, faster 223s would not. Seems like any of them should stabilize fine in the faster twist barrels.
Most of my info comes from trying to do some extensive research on the differences between the 5.56 NATO and the 223. A web search of the comparison between 5.56 and 223 will give you some really great history of the cartridges and their development. Also, as much info as I could find on the Savage 24 in this caliber.
Hopefully, some of this info may be somewhat helpful or at least a little interesting. Now I'm certainly curious to see what the actual twist rate on mine is, and maybe if we get enough others to check theirs; we may be able to explain the inconsistencies from one gun to the next. I kind of just always thought it was a quality control issue during the years of financial difficulties for the company.
Very interesting info. I posted a question on another thread here because I recently got a 223 over 20 gauge.
cas and odell23 seem to be on track, but slightly off according to the info I got from Cartridges of the World and from several web sources. And your measurements are not what Savage told me.
The 222 originally had a twist rate of 1:14, then went to 1:12 when trying to meet newer mil specs. The 223 (or 5.56) was actually a new cartridge developed for a twist rate of 1:9 for the initial cartridge M193 and 223, 55grain; then went to a 1:7 twist for the 62grain M855. The 222 had been modified to it's limits already, so the 223 was developed as a new cartridge to replace it. It was not a modification of the 222. Since the original twist rate for the 223 is 1:9, they were never designed or intended for the slower 1:12.
Savage informed me that all of their 223 barrels are either 1:9 or 1:7. Their 222 barrels were a twist rate of 1:14 or 1:12. However, they also said that they do not have complete records for the older models as Savage changed ownership in 1995. The Savage 24 was not discontinued until 2007, so many were made under this new ownership and many, many more under the older ownerships and managements. So it is quite possible that Savage does not actually know just what the twist rates are in the different years of production.
This begs a couple more questions. As I've read an almost equal number of people who say theirs are tack drivers to those who say theirs are unstable or not accurate at any reasonable distance: I have to wonder --- Did Savage maybe use up their excess 222 barrels by just chambering them for the 223? This different twist rate could certainly explain the inconsistencies. Most everything I've seen from someone who has re-chambered their 222 to a 223 says they are more accurate with slower, lighter bullets.
If there are some out there with the slower twist and some with the faster twist that the 223 was designed for. It could certainly make a major difference in the accuracy. The lighter, slower bullets that have similar ballistics to the 222 would stabilize in the slow rate just like the 222s did; while the heavier, faster 223s would not. Seems like any of them should stabilize fine in the faster twist barrels.
Most of my info comes from trying to do some extensive research on the differences between the 5.56 NATO and the 223. A web search of the comparison between 5.56 and 223 will give you some really great history of the cartridges and their development. Also, as much info as I could find on the Savage 24 in this caliber.
Hopefully, some of this info may be somewhat helpful or at least a little interesting. Now I'm certainly curious to see what the actual twist rate on mine is, and maybe if we get enough others to check theirs; we may be able to explain the inconsistencies from one gun to the next. I kind of just always thought it was a quality control issue during the years of financial difficulties for the company.
Apr 11, 2013 6:18:51 GMT -8 odell23 said:
As far as the history/twist rate of the Savage 24 guns, does anyone know when the last 24's were made? i know they sold them for several years off of the parts stockpile they had, but if the last barrels were actually made in the late 90's, then that could explain why none of us has ever seen a 24F with a 1 in 9 twist.
There are 3 different guns that need to be addressed to get the bigger picture. First is the Model 24V Series D.
Production of the original 24V started around 1966-67. When first released, it was only available in .222 Rem which at the time were light bullets requiring the long 1:14 twist. The 30-30 was added to the 24V-A in the 1970's and continued this way through the 24V Series B and Series C. The 24V Series D debuted in the 1979 catalog and .223 Rem added shortly thereafter. All of the 24V guns in .222 and .223 had these lighter bullet long twist rates.
When the company failed and Ron Coburn took over in 1988 he dropped all of the Savage models and refocused on the Model 110. However he had some left over parts from the 24V and his designers set about revamping the old 24 design. There was a transitionary period with guns I've been referring to as the 24VF transition which either contain a mixture of 24V and 24F parts, or are 24F guns in every way only they are marked 24V. This is what the "stockpile of parts" you reffered to was really all about.
Enter the 24F-12 Turkey and the 24F Predator models. The 24F-12T was built with hunters (and specifically turkey hunters) in mind. However it came in .22 hornet, .222 Rem, or .223 Rem and only over 12 gauge. This is where the 1:12 comes in to benchmark with other guns and available ammunition. It appears in catalogs from 1989 to 1994.
The early 24F Predator (identified by the drilled and tapped riser found on top of the rifle barrel) was similar to the 24F-12T except that it also was chambered for 20 gauge and came in extra calibers like .22lr and .30-30 Win. The same twist rate of 1:12 was found here also. It was in catalogs from 1989 to roughly 2000 (still verifying the end date).
The late 24F Predator (identified by the L-shaped bracket scope mounting fixture which bolted into the support bar on the right side of the breech between the two barrels) added the .17hmr to the family. The twist rate of the .223 Rem here was reduced to 1:9. This appears in catalogs from ~2001 (still verifying the start date) to the end of production in 2007.
As far as the history/twist rate of the Savage 24 guns, does anyone know when the last 24's were made? i know they sold them for several years off of the parts stockpile they had, but if the last barrels were actually made in the late 90's, then that could explain why none of us has ever seen a 24F with a 1 in 9 twist.
There are 3 different guns that need to be addressed to get the bigger picture. First is the Model 24V Series D.
Production of the original 24V started around 1966-67. When first released, it was only available in .222 Rem which at the time were light bullets requiring the long 1:14 twist. The 30-30 was added to the 24V-A in the 1970's and continued this way through the 24V Series B and Series C. The 24V Series D debuted in the 1979 catalog and .223 Rem added shortly thereafter. All of the 24V guns in .222 and .223 had these lighter bullet long twist rates.
When the company failed and Ron Coburn took over in 1988 he dropped all of the Savage models and refocused on the Model 110. However he had some left over parts from the 24V and his designers set about revamping the old 24 design. There was a transitionary period with guns I've been referring to as the 24VF transition which either contain a mixture of 24V and 24F parts, or are 24F guns in every way only they are marked 24V. This is what the "stockpile of parts" you reffered to was really all about.
Enter the 24F-12 Turkey and the 24F Predator models. The 24F-12T was built with hunters (and specifically turkey hunters) in mind. However it came in .22 hornet, .222 Rem, or .223 Rem and only over 12 gauge. This is where the 1:12 comes in to benchmark with other guns and available ammunition. It appears in catalogs from 1989 to 1994.
The early 24F Predator (identified by the drilled and tapped riser found on top of the rifle barrel) was similar to the 24F-12T except that it also was chambered for 20 gauge and came in extra calibers like .22lr and .30-30 Win. The same twist rate of 1:12 was found here also. It was in catalogs from 1989 to roughly 2000 (still verifying the end date).
The late 24F Predator (identified by the L-shaped bracket scope mounting fixture which bolted into the support bar on the right side of the breech between the two barrels) added the .17hmr to the family. The twist rate of the .223 Rem here was reduced to 1:9. This appears in catalogs from ~2001 (still verifying the start date) to the end of production in 2007.
