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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 15:50:16 GMT -5
I've just purchased one and wanted some feed back and insight before I head to the range, and then to the field. I might top it off with see through rings/mount and a scope, as I will not be shooting anything with it that is on the run or that I jump into the air. I have a few specific questions and I'd really appreciate any shared direct experience you can share with me, Both to save me some time getting set up and started but also to save money. After I'm established with a well functional tool that I'm confident with, I'll try my own experimentations but in the mean time, I turn to you guys here on the forum. I haven't been steered wrong yet! In any case,
1. Have any of you folks with the 24F 12T in 223 experienced any of the stringing issues that I seem to get with the V models as the barrel heats?
2. I've read on here before about the rate of twist causing precision and accuracy issues in the F models in 223.
-Can you elaborate on your experience with that again?
-What kind of groups do you get with your favorite ammo?
-What is your specific ammunition to get your best groups?
-In YOUR opinion, do you get good enough groups to put on a good scope? If the groups are junky-like with the V-D 222, I had I wouldn't want to bother with the cost of a nice
scope. But if they are tight groups, I might like to get some good magnification so I can reach out a bit with that 223.
3. I'll be using this for turkey primarily but will also try calling in a few coyotes down on the in-laws farm.
-Does anyone have a proven choke tube/ammo pairing suggestion that will give me a mean pattern at 35-40yrds for gobblers? I like shooting 6 shot to get more pellets in the air,
but will adjust to get the best pattern.
-Same question for coyote choke tube/ammo pairing and your effective distance for coyotes.
Thanks in advance for offering up some of your knowledge, advice and opinions. You guys always have good stuff on here.
Mike from Cincinnati
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Post by Mr. Polecat on Nov 19, 2014 17:04:50 GMT -5
1. My .30-30 24V strings as you describe. Not much of an issue in the woods, but it sure is annoying when trying to sight it in! 2.a. I can't speak from personal experience, but given the age of these guns, I would expect the twist rate in the .223 to be 1:14 or maybe 1:12. That will shoot a lightweight varmint bullet pretty well, but it won't stabilize a heavier bullet (all the newer guns seem to range between 1:7 and 1:10). If you get bad accuracy, you can probably correct it with lighter bullets, but then it may not have enough oompf to kill the bigger stuff clean..... 2.b. Again, I can't speak from personal experience on the .223, but my .30-30 will put the Federal Power Shock .30-30 into an inch at 100 yards if I use a really good rest and don't let the barrel heat up. I definitely get good enough groups to have a scope on it. I use a variable 3-9x Bushnell Banner muzzle-loader scope (for the eye relief when shooting slugs). 3. I can't comment on this, as mine is fixed choke.  Hope that helps! |
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Post by david on Nov 20, 2014 11:59:39 GMT -5
Your rifle will need to be shot and tested to see if it strings and what it likes best. I have a 24V in 222. No stringing at all. MINE prefers lighter bullets, even 40 gr hornets.
David
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Post by captcapsize on Nov 20, 2014 13:01:18 GMT -5
My .223/20 strings pretty bad with factory ammo but my "light" loads doesn't seem to heat the barrel in cool weather. Not the case in the summer though. I have found that with Federal Fusion ammo it will shoot 3 shots touching at 70 yds. (my present range limit) from a sand bag rest. In hunting situations I have not found the stringing to be an issue.
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Post by hairytully on Nov 21, 2014 4:05:26 GMT -5
Hi Rusty,
1. I also have a 24F 223/12G with 3-9x Nikon Coyote scope and have experienced the frustration of groups stringing and doubling in size as the rifle barrel heats up after several shots on a range visit. Try a couple of minutes with the barrel open, between groups to allow the barrel to return to ambient temperature.
The shotgun barrel with Winchester Foster slugs, through a full choke shoots 24" low at 50m, but phenomenally they are almost all touching together. I use a tiny red dot for aiming.
2. My 24F has a 1-14 twist and is very projectile length Vs weight sensitive. Vancovermike gave me the best advice, to treat it like a .222 barrel with more powder. Start with projectiles that you can find factory loaded in .222.
So 50gn or less lead core projectiles should work fine. 55gn results vary and 60gn or higher depends on your tolerance for hitting power Vs acceptable accuracy at your hunting ranges.
My best grouings have been with Varget powder, 40gn V-Max 0.5 moa. 50gn V-Max, 50gn SPSX and 55gn Nosler BT have been acceptable out to 200m at 1moa. 63gn Sierra SP was ok to 200m at 1.5moa
But the 53gn solid copper Barnes TSX and Speer 70gn SP are both the same length and won't group worth a damn. Remington 69gn match factory loads actually hit sideways at 25m proving they weren't stabilized at all.
Temperature and altitude can be factors too. Extreme cold will cause stability to drop off.
I've been researching online over the last year and obsessing to much.
For Non-varmint projectiles that would penetrate on Coyotes you could try Barnes TSX 45gn, Norma Orynx 55gn and Nosler Partition 60gn. Also the Sierra Spitzer in 45, 50 and 55gn are listed as hard at .223 velocities. The 63gn Sierra SP has gotta hurt too.
There are Fusion, Game King, Power Point and Bonded projectiles about 64gn but they probably won't be accurate enough for Coyotes, maybe Deer.
3. I have read BB up to #4Buck is potent on Coyotes. I was going to make some walk around loads half #4Buck on top of BBs
Hope I gave you some options to think about.
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Post by cas on Nov 26, 2014 23:43:21 GMT -5
The 24V 30-30/20 I had briefly strung very badly in rather short order. Guns like this need to be shot very slowly at the range.
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Post by captcapsize on Nov 28, 2014 15:59:32 GMT -5
The 24V 30-30/20 I had briefly strung very badly in rather short order. Guns like this need to be shot very slowly at the range. I am wondering if having a barrel band that allows the rifle barrel to slide as it expands and contracts as needed would solve that problem. Mine has barrels attached by a welded block and it strings pretty bad. |
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Post by vancmike on Dec 5, 2014 13:31:20 GMT -5
"I am wondering if having a barrel band that allows the rifle barrel to slide as it expands and contracts as needed would solve that problem. Mine has barrels attached by a welded block and it strings pretty bad."
Interesting idea: the concept would be to make the upper barrel as a floating barrel, similar to many bolt action hunting rifles. I had a sporterized Springfield in '06 that was incredibly accurate. The action/barrel was bedded in a synthetic stock, with a floating barrel. However, two other very accurate bolt actions were a couple of Rem 700, one in .280, the other in .308. Both had a bedding block out just shy of the forend (both were featherweights, so the barrels were pencil-thin).
Alas, all those rifles' patterns began opening up after 3-5 shots. It's the curse of light-weight barrels (combined with larger amounts of powder) and that's what a Mdl 24 wears. The only rifles I've ever owned that shot multiple (i.e., 20+) rounds without stringing had thick (1" or more) barrels or were small capacity calibers (22 LR or 22 Hornet) (for example, I had a varmint rifle in .223 on a Rem 700 action. The barrel alone weighed almost 7 lbs. and it was 'floated' with no support forward of the first 2" of the barrel).
I don't think that the Mdl 24 lends itself to being a target rifle. You should strive for good 3-round groups. But if you're going to shoot more than 3-4 rounds, let the barrel cool first.
Thanks, hairytully for the kind words. Yes, RustBelt's .223 probably has a 1-14" twist. 52 gr or smaller bullets will shoot best. Barnes non-leaded bullets, even in 50 gr. are much longer than lead jacketed bullets (as we all know, it's the length of the bullet, not the weight that is affected by the twist). FWIW, I get lovely one-hole 3-shot groups with my .222 Rem 24V, using Sierra, Speer, Nosler and Hornady bullets, all 50 gr or smaller. Then the groups begin opening up....unless I allow the barrel to cool.
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Post by hairytully on Dec 24, 2014 7:35:09 GMT -5
Hi Rusty, all, I just wanted to share with you, specific info on my best grouping hunting loads in .223. I did a lot of theoretical comparisons on JBM free ballistics calculator. www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_drift-5.1.cgiI'd recommend shorter, blunt nose projectiles above 53gn, but surprisingly the Nosler 55gn Ballistic Tip is my goto projectile, consistently very accurate (>1 MOA 50-200m) with most loads I have tried from 25-27gn of Varget(AR2208) and OAL 2.3" to just touching the lands (JTL) at 2.436". However as with all loads, when jammed into the rifling or when the barrel gets very warm the groups open up to over 2MOA. My best performing heavier load is the blunt Sierra 63gn SP. As I stepped up the powder to 26gn Varget and OAL 2.32 the groups tightened to 1 MOA. I've only been able to try the hard hitting Nosler 60gn Partitions at 50m so far and had ok 1,5 MOA groups. 25.5 Varget OAL 2.31 JTL One to avoid for my rifle is the Speer 70gn SP which locked up my action for a few minutes every other shot. Even reducing the loads didn't seem to help, so I pulled all those rounds. Hornady 40gn V-Max and 50gn SPSX 26.8 OAL 2.33" JTL are highly accurate (>1MOA) too, but the little 40gn hit 3 MOA left from my other loads. A Very Merry Summer Christmas from Australia. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 13:35:34 GMT -5
Nice day in the field Friday with the new 24-12T. First off, my initial thoughts are that the unique factory camo job is cooler than John Wayne, but the thing is so heavy that it's not practical with out a steady rest and a quality sling. I'm serious it feels like 16 or 17 pounds. The weight is immediately noticeable and slightly overbearing. The good news is that I put on a new Nikon 3-9 scope, with iron sighter rings. I used a sawhorse rest to dial it right on in at 92 yards ( max distance I had to shoot-and near my maximum I can steady it up at). I was able to achieve 2" groups with the 40g Hornady v-max that was suggested several times on this post and I could have done better I'm certain with a steadier rest. using a .660 restriction Carlson's extended turkey choke tube, I was able to devastate a 12" target at 40yrds after a little adjustment with the open sights. I used federal low brass to adjust the sights and the tested the tube/pattern with #5 shot Remington Premium High Velocity Turkey Magnum loads. It was a very impressive pattern indeed. The big take always from the afternoon were 1-no stringing issues were observed, 2-the groups were relatively tight at 92yrds shooting 40gr v-max when considering I was shooting off a saw horse from a camping chair, 3-the extended choke tube had seemingly no effect on the shot placement or POA (I swapped between th extended and flush tube to check this), 4-the Carlson .660 extended choke tube had a dramatic improvement on the pattern at 40yrds and gives me 100%confidence on taking a shot on a gobbler at any reasonable distance(however a pattern so tight requires careful aiming at close distance-both due to missing and to avoid meat damage if you shoot low). I'll report bck on coyote loads and patterns at longer distances when I get an opportunity with a better rest and cough up the $$ for appropriate coyote shells.
Mike
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